Originally posted by Best Lilim Dorothy:

I think it's crazy that we only now have people talking about how unhealthy this perk is. I personally like running Expose builds, and it hasn't been a problem until the literal tidal wave of Vigil gamers recently. I really don't think there should be a perk that can do literally everything for no interaction on both sides.
I had a good, healthy 20 seconds on Haunted Grounds and had a match go from a 4k to a 2k because silly me, I didn't know the survivor, who was in a bad position, just had a perk that lets them not be exposed anymore.
Personally, Expose and Exhaustion timers are things that shouldn't be changed unless it's for a requirement of sorts, like Blood Rush letting you reset it when you're unhooked.
Please just remove those two from the perk, and it'll be healthy enough. (No one will use it because they're literally only using it for 16-second sprint bursts)

I would like to personally hear others' opinions on this, though, but if you're going to be here in bad faith, just saying skill issue, etc., please don't waste both our time.

Very poorly thought out suggestion.

Vigil is a transformative perk that vastly changes how both sides can play the game, it's also a scoutable perk that requires game sense, knowledge and nuance to detect in any meaningful and actionable capacity.

Bloodrush is nice too but less so.

DBD is more than micro interactions. Macro, interactions with game state and shifting, distorting and twisting wincons is equally important.

Originally posted by Smugwib Youtube Live:

Originally posted by Best Lilim Dorothy:

I think it's crazy that we only now have people talking about how unhealthy this perk is. I personally like running Expose builds, and it hasn't been a problem until the literal tidal wave of Vigil gamers recently. I really don't think there should be a perk that can do literally everything for no interaction on both sides.
I had a good, healthy 20 seconds on Haunted Grounds and had a match go from a 4k to a 2k because silly me, I didn't know the survivor, who was in a bad position, just had a perk that lets them not be exposed anymore.
Personally, Expose and Exhaustion timers are things that shouldn't be changed unless it's for a requirement of sorts, like Blood Rush letting you reset it when you're unhooked.
Please just remove those two from the perk, and it'll be healthy enough. (No one will use it because they're literally only using it for 16-second sprint bursts)

I would like to personally hear others' opinions on this, though, but if you're going to be here in bad faith, just saying skill issue, etc., please don't waste both our time.

Very poorly thought out suggestion.

Vigil is a transformative perk that vastly changes how both sides can play the game, it's also a scoutable perk that requires game sense, knowledge and nuance to detect in any meaningful and actionable capacity.

Bloodrush is nice too but less so.

DBD is more than micro interactions. Macro, interactions with game state and shifting, distorting and twisting wincons is equally important.

"Vastly Changes how both sides can play the game"

By that, you mean they gain the ability to counter almost half the killer perks by using a perk that doesn't tell you that it exists, while the survivor gets only upsides, and only until a timer seems off that the killer lets out the big sigh and says, "Oh great, Vigil".

Even with just removing Exhaustion and Expose, like I said, it's still going to ruin add-ons and perks that use Blindness, Mangle, Broken, etc. Granted, those mechanics are annoying when a whole perk is built around it, but there shouldn't be a perk on either side that completely shuts down interactions for no counter play, without it either being heavily restricted (Blood Favor) or a hard-to-obtain requirement (Mettle of Man, Debatable tho).

No. They have buffed every single Expose build (including Ghostface's power) that increases the duration beyond what is an acceptable chase time. Vigil needs to stay where it's at unless they reduce Expose timers back to 45 secs.

Originally posted by Latina Creampes:

No. They have buffed every single Expose build (including Ghostface's power) that increases the duration beyond what is an acceptable chase time. Vigil needs to stay where it's at unless they reduce Expose timers back to 45 secs.

Haunted Grounds has always been 60 seconds; it activates once and then never again unless Undying is involved. It's never been a problem. Make Your Choice has also been 60 seconds since its release. Devour Hope is a Hex and can be broken. Dragons Grip lasts for 30 seconds if a gen regresses, and you knew he kicked it, just do another gen. Hubris pre-drop, Starstruck just run away, Iron Maiden just don't go in lockers. There's honestly only one perk that I do think is OP in a vacuum, which is Friends till the end, but even then it's only 20 seconds if you're across the map or hiding, the killer can't see your aura, and ur safe. Ghostface isn't affected by Vigil, it's a killer power. What you want is Ghostface to be nerfed.

Originally posted by Best Lilim Dorothy:

Originally posted by Smugwib Youtube Live:

Very poorly thought out suggestion.

Vigil is a transformative perk that vastly changes how both sides can play the game, it's also a scoutable perk that requires game sense, knowledge and nuance to detect in any meaningful and actionable capacity.

Bloodrush is nice too but less so.

DBD is more than micro interactions. Macro, interactions with game state and shifting, distorting and twisting wincons is equally important.

"Vastly Changes how both sides can play the game"

By that, you mean they gain the ability to counter almost half the killer perks by using a perk that doesn't tell you that it exists, while the survivor gets only upsides, and only until a timer seems off that the killer lets out the big sigh and says, "Oh great, Vigil".

Even with just removing Exhaustion and Expose, like I said, it's still going to ruin add-ons and perks that use Blindness, Mangle, Broken, etc. Granted, those mechanics are annoying when a whole perk is built around it, but there shouldn't be a perk on either side that completely shuts down interactions for no counter play, without it either being heavily restricted (Blood Favor) or a hard-to-obtain requirement (Mettle of Man, Debatable tho).

No, I do not mean it counters almost half of the killer's perks. I mean it mitigates some of the killer's perks. You're misinterpreting the word counter and you're making a dishonest assertation.

and yes, it does tell you it exists if you pay attention. This is asking you to have a little bit of game knowledge and a sense of in game clock (Read: Skill) I not only scout vigil in my own games, but I can even scout multiple vigils and sometimes which survivors stacked the perk, in real time while playing. why can't you?

Do you know what you are talking about?

Originally posted by Best Lilim Dorothy:

I think it's crazy that we only now have people talking about how unhealthy this perk is. I personally like running Expose builds, and it hasn't been a problem until the literal tidal wave of Vigil gamers recently. I really don't think there should be a perk that can do literally everything for no interaction on both sides.
I had a good, healthy 20 seconds on Haunted Grounds and had a match go from a 4k to a 2k because silly me, I didn't know the survivor, who was in a bad position, just had a perk that lets them not be exposed anymore.
Personally, Expose and Exhaustion timers are things that shouldn't be changed unless it's for a requirement of sorts, like Blood Rush letting you reset it when you're unhooked.
Please just remove those two from the perk, and it'll be healthy enough. (No one will use it because they're literally only using it for 16-second sprint bursts)

I would like to personally hear others' opinions on this, though, but if you're going to be here in bad faith, just saying skill issue, etc., please don't waste both our time.

and forget easy examples like scaling deliverance or second wind, I can tell a player's vigil status by their sprint burst timer when juggling chases with other slugvivors.

you really have no excuse

Originally posted by Latina Creampes:

No. They have buffed every single Expose build (including Ghostface's power) that increases the duration beyond what is an acceptable chase time. Vigil needs to stay where it's at unless they reduce Expose timers back to 45 secs.

This. They already gutted Distortion into uselessness. I never had either perk but Vigil’s buff was deserved (as was Wake Up!-though that buff didn’t even make it out of the PTB), instead the devs also nerfed it into uselessness for anyone but 4 man comp SWFs.

ah yes nerf another survivor perk that'll fix things let's not talk about pain res, dms, gear head, pop goes the weasle, noed, bamboozle even though vigil only reduces things by 40% heaven forbid we can't keep suvivors exposed for a full 30 seconds with friends til the end.

Originally posted by OrangeGoblin1771:

ah yes nerf another survivor perk that'll fix things let's not talk about pain res, dms, gear head, pop goes the weasle, noed, bamboozle even though vigil only reduces things by 40% heaven forbid we can't keep suvivors exposed for a full 30 seconds with friends til the end.

Out of all the ways to own the original suggestion this isn't one of them.

Vigil stacks, it's not a strict 40%.

killers have perks righ now with 90% pick rates that's a clear indicator that killer rely on certain perks far too much being anything that will one shot a survivor or block the gen for two whole minutes along with dms. Survivors highest pick rate perks are only in the 30% to 40% range. most survivor perks dont even matter anymore, anything with stealth or healing can be next to useless now which forces survivors to only use exhustion perks because they ♥♥♥♥♥♥ all the vault systems and loops that used to be in the game. keep in mind it used to be skill based in chases not just run 4 meta perks and win. I'm look at you dissolution and no where to hide and predator

Originally posted by Smugwib Youtube Live:

Originally posted by OrangeGoblin1771:

ah yes nerf another survivor perk that'll fix things let's not talk about pain res, dms, gear head, pop goes the weasle, noed, bamboozle even though vigil only reduces things by 40% heaven forbid we can't keep suvivors exposed for a full 30 seconds with friends til the end.

Out of all the ways to own the original suggestion this isn't one of them.

Vigil stacks, it's not a strict 40%.

yes but it works like all other support perks that stack only one person get's the full benefit any other stack is reduced by half so you can only get vigil to 75% if all 4 people run it so unless your swf it's not a big deal

Originally posted by OrangeGoblin1771:

Originally posted by Smugwib Youtube Live:

Out of all the ways to own the original suggestion this isn't one of them.

Vigil stacks, it's not a strict 40%.

yes but it works like all other support perks that stack only one person get's the full benefit any other stack is reduced by half so you can only get vigil to 75% if all 4 people run it so unless your swf it's not a big deal

I escape 9/10 solo queue games

Originally posted by OrangeGoblin1771:

killers have perks righ now with 90% pick rates that's a clear indicator that killer rely on certain perks far too much being anything that will one shot a survivor or block the gen for two whole minutes along with dms. Survivors highest pick rate perks are only in the 30% to 40% range. most survivor perks dont even matter anymore, anything with stealth or healing can be next to useless now which forces survivors to only use exhustion perks because they ♥♥♥♥♥♥ all the vault systems and loops that used to be in the game. keep in mind it used to be skill based in chases not just run 4 meta perks and win. I'm look at you dissolution and no where to hide and predator

I rarely find a lobby where I feel like it matters what killer I play or that I need perks of any kind (or any perks at all) to win.

my most common result is a 4k5.

Originally posted by OrangeGoblin1771:

Originally posted by Smugwib Youtube Live:

Out of all the ways to own the original suggestion this isn't one of them.

Vigil stacks, it's not a strict 40%.

yes but it works like all other support perks that stack only one person get's the full benefit any other stack is reduced by half so you can only get vigil to 75% if all 4 people run it so unless your swf it's not a big deal

I use Vigil sprint burst sometimes and have SB availiable for every prerun as a solo player

Originally posted by Smugwib Youtube Live:

Originally posted by Best Lilim Dorothy:

"Vastly Changes how both sides can play the game"

By that, you mean they gain the ability to counter almost half the killer perks by using a perk that doesn't tell you that it exists, while the survivor gets only upsides, and only until a timer seems off that the killer lets out the big sigh and says, "Oh great, Vigil".

Even with just removing Exhaustion and Expose, like I said, it's still going to ruin add-ons and perks that use Blindness, Mangle, Broken, etc. Granted, those mechanics are annoying when a whole perk is built around it, but there shouldn't be a perk on either side that completely shuts down interactions for no counter play, without it either being heavily restricted (Blood Favor) or a hard-to-obtain requirement (Mettle of Man, Debatable tho).

No, I do not mean it counters almost half of the killer's perks. I mean it mitigates some of the killer's perks. You're misinterpreting the word counter and you're making a dishonest assertation.

and yes, it does tell you it exists if you pay attention. This is asking you to have a little bit of game knowledge and a sense of in game clock (Read: Skill) I not only scout vigil in my own games, but I can even scout multiple vigils and sometimes which survivors stacked the perk, in real time while playing. why can't you?

Do you know what you are talking about?

Once you've scouted Vigil it still makes it unhealthy, regardless. Once you know it's in play, sure, you can calculate how much it'll mitigate some perks, but the real thing depends on your build, and how unhealthy it'll be. Take Friends till the end vigil makes the expose part unusable, but you still get the aura reading and can instantly take chase, Haunted Grounds isn't as lucky it only exists to give a 60 second punishment which is not mitigated by existing, Keep in mind the example I was using in the title of the discussion was around about the end part of the game, 2 gens left, 9 hooks, and I didn't know Vigil was in play as the survivor didn't have it the rat of the team did and I got punished for a perk that I didn't know was in play, how is that healthy?

The issue with the perk isn't "oh I've scouted it out, I know that they'll have 16 second sprint burst, etc." It's the simple, basic fact of "Oh great, I now have way less value in my perks because one survivor", that's not healthy. Sure, you can use your in-game skill to know if perks are still in play. I know how long the uncloak bonus is on wraith and play around that on builds using blind warrior but asking every single person to just know that is poor perk design.

We can argue on in-game skill, and sure, being knowledgeable on how perks change the game is good and helps, but asking everyone to just know that VIgil exists and will almost cut your build's status effects in half is silly and you can't change my mind on that I'm sorry.

But I'm thankful for your point of view as I do think there is an inherent skill part of it but I still don't think it makes the perk healthy.