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Krigs' 25 Jun @ 2:25am
pyro's skill ceiling
I'd say it's no mystery that many people think pyro's skill ceiling is a controversial topic.
Some people say it's high, some perople say it's extremely low, some people say that it's low but not the lowest.
This thread aims to give my own opinion on the debate explaining my reasoning and highlighting the aspects of pyro that give him the high skill ceiling I belive he has.
To start this all, I want to specify that most of these are speculations made by someone who has 1150 hours, so I know that many people have more experience and knowledge about the game, but I'd like those people to contrast my arguments with actual counter arguments rather than "you do not know the game".
Another thing to specify is that many of the aspects of pyro that I highlight are niche and many times ignored, but I choose to consider them because for all of them, I impose myself a question: does it benefit you?
For example, let's take engineer. Rocket hauling is part of the skill ceiling, because it's useful for escaping with your sentry or place it in a favourable unreachable postion or one that would require a considerable amount of time to get into without having to use the rescue ranger and having to spend 100 metal. This does not hurt you. Instead, mastering the pomson is undeniably hard, but I don't count it in the skill ceiling because using the weapon actively hurts you.
Now that we got some things clear, let's start.
Combos:
I've seen many people overestimating the skill required to perform combos as pyro, after all axtinguisher is a melee weapon and it isn't too difficult to use, same with the flare gun at short range (but I'll talk more about the FG later). But when talking about pyro's skill ceiling, we have to consider the most difficulty combos to perform, that being the ones against enemy pyros with axtinguisher or flare gun. This already requires a considerable amount of practice to consistently perform against pyro moving in an unpredictable way, making combo pyro a skillful playstyle to master (even thought many times overrated).
Detonator:
Many people seem to underestimate detonator's skill ceiling, but it's arguably the most difficult pyro secondary to master. The AOE damage can be tricky but overall isn't too difficult to get used to, but the jumping techs provided have an immense skill ceiling. To prove my point, I'll share a video about a detonator jump map (I know some of the jumps aren't realistic but completing the map means that you'll be way more efficient than other with the detonator, and completing the map is no joke).
https://youtu.be/gfL4dhReJCc?si=K_YsX9lV42PTtZUG
Flare gun:
I talked previously about how flare gun's skill ceiling is raised by comboing against enemy pyros, but another important aspect is long range. The flare gun being such a fast projectile makes mid-long range engagements more skill based than luck based, as the enemy will have the same possibility to dodge as if they were at around half the distance from you against a rocket launcher. Hitting flares at that distance is undeniably hard, especially considering that the arc starts to matter.
Positioning/gamesense:
Pyro being a class mostly efficient at close range but also really weak has a considerable requirement of map knowledge and dodging to engage in a favourable range.
Also pyro, being a jack of all trades, has a certain gamesense requirement since he needs to constantly switch his role from offense to defense and, in some niche situations, to ambush. Not the class with the highest gamesense ceiling but still not the lowest.
Reflect jumping:
Many people see it as the peak of pyro's skill ceiling but I disagree, thought it can be undeniably hard to master if we pair it with axtinguisher market gardeners.
Airblasting fast projectiles:
Again, many people see this as the peak of pyro's skill ceiling, but aside from LnL grenades and DH rockets (both achievable by training on dodgeball servers) there is only the huntsman, that usually results in lucky reflects unless you are at a considerable range. It's still one of the most difficult things to do consistently, but the next thing I'd argue that is just on a whole other level
Aiming reflected projectiles:
Peak of pyro's skill ceiling. As long as the grenade launcher and rocket launcher will take a high level of skill to master, pyro will too. It's part of the skill ceiling as it doesn't hurt you (as something like using the pomson would on engineer) and instead rewards you with big damage. Hitting direct hits or airshots with grenades and rockets is one of the hardest things in the game to master, and the fact pyro can do that too is the reason why the skill ceiling is so high.
So, is pyro the class with the highest skill ceiling?
No. Absolutely not. Soldier, demoman and spy are the top 3 classes in terms of skill ceiling, and they are quite interchangeable, while sniper follows quite closely. But heavy, medic and engineer are all below pyro and scout has, imo, a slightly lower/equal skill ceiling. Why?
Scout vs pyro:
Scout is widely considered a class with a very high skill ceiling (totally justified imo) and some even say that he has the highest skill ceiling in the game. Pyro being slightly over/equal to him in terms of skill ceiling sounds like a hot take, but my guess is that scout places higher in terms of positioning and gamesense as it's considerably more required by scout, while pyro has an edge when it comes to aiming, as rockets/grenades are generally seen as more difficult to master than the scattergun. The last point of comparison is the movement part, as scout has his high speed, double jumping and force jumping. Pyro on the other hand has det jumping and reflect jumping. I find movement skill to be really subjective and people can have preferences, so this is why I think there is a case in which scout is on a pyro level of skill ceiling, but the aiming difference outclasses the gamesense/positioning difference if you ask me (again, rocket/grenades are extremely harder to master than the scattergun). Don't get me wrong. I think that every class except heavy, medic and engi has an extremely high skill ceiling, and I've played MGE before, I've seen some cracked scouts in 1v1s so I can safely say that scout's skill ceiling is admirable.
Last edited by Krigs'; 25 Jun @ 5:29am
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Showing 1-15 of 22 comments
Krigs' 25 Jun @ 9:10am 
another thing I forgot to add is that in my opinion one of the reason people underestimate pyro's skill ceiling is because he gets compared constantly with soldier and demoman. It makes sense since those 3 are the projectile classes, but only because pyro is easier to master compared to what may be the 2 most difficult classes to master in the game doesn't mean that he doesn't have an extremely high skill ceiling
#1
Mina 25 Jun @ 9:20am 
He can only flank attack unaware enemies it comes down to airblasting projectiles and ubers and needs a team to help against stronger enemies but never take them head on in a 1v1 like soldier or heavy or pushing with an engineer nest nearby
#2
Krigs' 25 Jun @ 9:30am 
Originally posted by Mina:
He can only flank attack unaware enemies it comes down to airblasting projectiles and ubers and needs a team to help against stronger enemies but never take them head on in a 1v1 like soldier or heavy or pushing with an engineer nest nearby
In fact in my gamesense section I specified that the situations in which a pyro goes for an ambush are niche and rare, mainly if he can get in a position where he can drop on some enemies and go for an unexpected and deadly W+M1 ambush.
If by "it comes down to airblasting projectiles and ubers" you refer to defense then I would say that a defensive playstyle is more about mindset than anything, yes those are the actions you'll find yourself doing but it's mostly about understanding how the two teams are acting and switch to a defensive/offensive mindset accordingly.
Pyro can deal surprisingly well with soldier if he uses the degreaser, even if the soldier has a shotgun (after all you just need to be a bit better than him to surpass that 25 HP difference, it isn't as impossible as people say), while heavy is arguably one of his counters (but you can deal with him with the df or the panic attack if you manage to abuse the environment). Also playing with your team is part of the offensive playstyle pyro can embrace in favourable situations
#3
Cynimatic (Banned) 25 Jun @ 11:42am 
pyro's skill ceiling basically doesn't matter. a 10 hour pyro player is about as threatening as a 1000 hour pyro player.
wm1 is just as good as flanking/ambushes.
scorch/det spam is just as good as flare combos.
spamming m2 at literally anyone who enters its range is just as good as perfectly aimed reflects.
being "good" at pyro has practically no effect on gameplay.
#4
Krigs' 25 Jun @ 11:50am 
Originally posted by Cynimatic:
pyro's skill ceiling basically doesn't matter. a 10 hour pyro player is about as threatening as a 1000 hour pyro player.
wm1 is just as good as flanking/ambushes.
scorch/det spam is just as good as flare combos.
spamming m2 at literally anyone who enters its range is just as good as perfectly aimed reflects.
being "good" at pyro has practically no effect on gameplay.
Flanking/ambushes aren't that good as pyro (in fact I said they are a niche part of his gameplay), and in fact W+M1 isn't that effective.
Scorch/det spam might be as good some times (but that is only If we're talking about hitting enemies behind cover, because if you can get the second flare in than fg becomes infinitely superior and it also gives an advantage against pyros), but it isn't as fun. Also det gives the possibility of learning a complex jumping tech.
How exactly? Perfectly aimed reflects simply deal a more damage than going for the splash damage of rockets, while with grenades you can deal damage at all since if you don't aim the grenade you're 90% not going to deal any. In what universe negating damage is as good as negating damage+dealing a mini crits with the strongest projectiles in the game?
Last edited by Krigs'; 25 Jun @ 11:50am
#5
AwesomeSause 25 Jun @ 12:04pm 
diehard pyro main here, pyro is complete ass i hope he gets removed
#6
Cynimatic (Banned) 25 Jun @ 12:06pm 
Originally posted by Krigs':
Originally posted by Cynimatic:
pyro's skill ceiling basically doesn't matter. a 10 hour pyro player is about as threatening as a 1000 hour pyro player.
wm1 is just as good as flanking/ambushes.
scorch/det spam is just as good as flare combos.
spamming m2 at literally anyone who enters its range is just as good as perfectly aimed reflects.
being "good" at pyro has practically no effect on gameplay.
Flanking/ambushes aren't that good as pyro (in fact I said they are a niche part of his gameplay), and in fact W+M1 isn't that effective.
Scorch/det spam might be as good some times (but that is only If we're talking about hitting enemies behind cover, because if you can get the second flare in than fg becomes infinitely superior and it also gives an advantage against pyros), but it isn't as fun. Also det gives the possibility of learning a complex jumping tech.
How exactly? Perfectly aimed reflects simply deal a more damage than going for the splash damage of rockets, while with grenades you can deal damage at all since if you don't aim the grenade you're 90% not going to deal any. In what universe negating damage is as good as negating damage+dealing a mini crits with the strongest projectiles in the game?
because most of the time shoving players around and completely shutting down their mobility will get them killed just as reliably as them eating a mini crit. not to mention that the same stunlock you're pinning a player to the wall with will also cause them to eat a mini crit if they try to fight back. getting ebic reflegts on players at range only really works against bad players and at that point you might as well pick soldier or demo yourself.
#7
ADvertise 25 Jun @ 12:20pm 
Originally posted by Cynimatic:
pyro's skill ceiling basically doesn't matter. a 10 hour pyro player is about as threatening as a 1000 hour pyro player. being "good" at pyro has practically no effect on gameplay.

I mean, what happens when you see a player like this, or have to face a Sketchek though? https://steamproxy-script.pipiskins.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=714666299

https://steamproxy-script.pipiskins.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=768969087


At the end of the day, there's always a player hitting the top of the scoreboards no matter what class they are picking. They make better predictions, have better aim, better movements, better flanks, offer better teamwork, better support, better baiting tactics, better map and situational awareness, etc.

So, I mean. Are we saying that skill-ceiling is only limited to class-mechanics and not creativity and tactics / raw aim and movements?

I mean, it's like yeah. I used to get 30-60 kill-streaks pretty consistently as pyro. I say used to, but they have since been nerfed + arthritis. While I can't hit the God-like killstreaks anymore I still hit the top of the leader-board. But even so, back in my prime someone like Sketchek or B4nny would still clap my cheeks if they were on Pyro.

Heck, I even met players getting God-like killstreaks as battlemedic with a crossbow that gave me a run for my money. Some people are just snorting adderall on this game.

It ain't a class that I worry about, it's the person piloting the class that I worry about.
Last edited by ADvertise; 25 Jun @ 6:45pm
#8
Krigs' 25 Jun @ 12:45pm 
Originally posted by AwesomeSause:
diehard pyro main here, pyro is complete ass i hope he gets removed
Ok, anything to say about the topic of skill ceiling?


Originally posted by Cynimatic:
Originally posted by Krigs':
Flanking/ambushes aren't that good as pyro (in fact I said they are a niche part of his gameplay), and in fact W+M1 isn't that effective.
Scorch/det spam might be as good some times (but that is only If we're talking about hitting enemies behind cover, because if you can get the second flare in than fg becomes infinitely superior and it also gives an advantage against pyros), but it isn't as fun. Also det gives the possibility of learning a complex jumping tech.
How exactly? Perfectly aimed reflects simply deal a more damage than going for the splash damage of rockets, while with grenades you can deal damage at all since if you don't aim the grenade you're 90% not going to deal any. In what universe negating damage is as good as negating damage+dealing a mini crits with the strongest projectiles in the game?
because most of the time shoving players around and completely shutting down their mobility will get them killed just as reliably as them eating a mini crit. not to mention that the same stunlock you're pinning a player to the wall with will also cause them to eat a mini crit if they try to fight back. getting ebic reflegts on players at range only really works against bad players and at that point you might as well pick soldier or demo yourself.
Stu locking someone with airblast requires you to be at close range, where airblasting an incoming rocket becomes luck based and therefore unreliable. Not to mention that the soldier can just shoot after you airblasted him before you're able to air last again.
Depends on the range, I wouldn't count on hitting an enemy shooting a rocket/pipe 1000hu away, but at a reasonable range (the one where a soldier/demoman would shoot trying to get a direct hit) it's exactly like you were another soldier/demoman trying to hit them.
Playing pyro is about either fun or inability to aim. If you can aim grenades and rockets the reason becomes instantly the first one, so I don't see "just play soldier or demoman" as a decent argument
#9
Cynimatic (Banned) 25 Jun @ 12:56pm 
Originally posted by ADvertise:
Originally posted by Cynimatic:
pyro's skill ceiling basically doesn't matter. a 10 hour pyro player is about as threatening as a 1000 hour pyro player. being "good" at pyro has practically no effect on gameplay.

I mean, what happens when you see a player like this, or have to face a Sketchek though? https://steamproxy-script.pipiskins.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=714666299


At the end of the day, there's always a player hitting the top of the scoreboards no matter what class they are picking. They make better predictions, have better aim, better movements, better flanks, offer better teamwork, better support, better baiting tactics, better map and situational awareness, etc.

So, I mean. Are we saying that skill-ceiling is only limited to class-mechanics and not creativity and tactics / raw aim and movements?

I mean, it's like yeah. I used to get 30-60 kill-streaks pretty consistently as pyro. I say used to, but the class had been nerfed pretty hard since then + arthritis. Still, even back in my prime someone like Sketchek would still clap my cheeks.

It ain't the other classes I fear, it's the person piloting the other classes that I worry about.
would probably be doing better as soldier or demo. also 2fort screenshot lmao. stomping f2ps on the worst map in the game proves close to nothing.

i've faced my fair share of pyro mains. the best strategy is to just not fight them. they can't do anything if you don't engage because the class has no range and no damage and almost no mobility. if you do they'll usually just mess up some stupid airblast-to-det-jump-to-axetinguisher combo that doesn't even kill before airblasting you into a corner and letting their teammates and afterburn pick you apart. about 90% of pyro mains are like this and it's always the airblast stunlock that kills. the ebic comboes aren't necessary.

i'm not saying there aren't good pyro players, it's just that i simply don't care if pyro takes skill or not. to me the top level play of pyro and the most brainless play of pyro produces the exact same results. it's annoying, it's unfun, it's pointless. it should go away.
#10
Cynimatic (Banned) 25 Jun @ 1:03pm 
Originally posted by Krigs':
Originally posted by AwesomeSause:
diehard pyro main here, pyro is complete ass i hope he gets removed
Ok, anything to say about the topic of skill ceiling?


Originally posted by Cynimatic:
because most of the time shoving players around and completely shutting down their mobility will get them killed just as reliably as them eating a mini crit. not to mention that the same stunlock you're pinning a player to the wall with will also cause them to eat a mini crit if they try to fight back. getting ebic reflegts on players at range only really works against bad players and at that point you might as well pick soldier or demo yourself.
Stu locking someone with airblast requires you to be at close range, where airblasting an incoming rocket becomes luck based and therefore unreliable. Not to mention that the soldier can just shoot after you airblasted him before you're able to air last again.
Depends on the range, I wouldn't count on hitting an enemy shooting a rocket/pipe 1000hu away, but at a reasonable range (the one where a soldier/demoman would shoot trying to get a direct hit) it's exactly like you were another soldier/demoman trying to hit them.
Playing pyro is about either fun or inability to aim. If you can aim grenades and rockets the reason becomes instantly the first one, so I don't see "just play soldier or demoman" as a decent argument
my argument is that if you have the ability to aim rockets or grenades you should just play soldier or demo instead. relying on other classes weapons for your classes weapon to deal damage is incredibly restrictive. the enemy might not have good enough aim for your reflects to work, the enemy might not shoot at you with their explosives, the enemy might not even be playing soldier or demo. might as well just use those weapons instead. soldier has the buff banner if you're that desperate for minicrits.
#11
AwesomeSause 25 Jun @ 1:07pm 
Originally posted by Krigs':
Originally posted by AwesomeSause:
diehard pyro main here, pyro is complete ass i hope he gets removed
Ok, anything to say about the topic of skill ceiling?


Originally posted by Cynimatic:
because most of the time shoving players around and completely shutting down their mobility will get them killed just as reliably as them eating a mini crit. not to mention that the same stunlock you're pinning a player to the wall with will also cause them to eat a mini crit if they try to fight back. getting ebic reflegts on players at range only really works against bad players and at that point you might as well pick soldier or demo yourself.
Stu locking someone with airblast requires you to be at close range, where airblasting an incoming rocket becomes luck based and therefore unreliable. Not to mention that the soldier can just shoot after you airblasted him before you're able to air last again.
Depends on the range, I wouldn't count on hitting an enemy shooting a rocket/pipe 1000hu away, but at a reasonable range (the one where a soldier/demoman would shoot trying to get a direct hit) it's exactly like you were another soldier/demoman trying to hit them.
Playing pyro is about either fun or inability to aim. If you can aim grenades and rockets the reason becomes instantly the first one, so I don't see "just play soldier or demoman" as a decent argument
the skill ceiling is so low id rather play heavy to have some actual skill
#12
Krigs' 25 Jun @ 1:25pm 
Originally posted by Cynimatic:
Originally posted by Krigs':
Ok, anything to say about the topic of skill ceiling?



Stu locking someone with airblast requires you to be at close range, where airblasting an incoming rocket becomes luck based and therefore unreliable. Not to mention that the soldier can just shoot after you airblasted him before you're able to air last again.
Depends on the range, I wouldn't count on hitting an enemy shooting a rocket/pipe 1000hu away, but at a reasonable range (the one where a soldier/demoman would shoot trying to get a direct hit) it's exactly like you were another soldier/demoman trying to hit them.
Playing pyro is about either fun or inability to aim. If you can aim grenades and rockets the reason becomes instantly the first one, so I don't see "just play soldier or demoman" as a decent argument
my argument is that if you have the ability to aim rockets or grenades you should just play soldier or demo instead. relying on other classes weapons for your classes weapon to deal damage is incredibly restrictive. the enemy might not have good enough aim for your reflects to work, the enemy might not shoot at you with their explosives, the enemy might not even be playing soldier or demo. might as well just use those weapons instead. soldier has the buff banner if you're that desperate for minicrits.
Airblast is just a part of the pyro experience, not everything the pyro player looks for, but it also comes into play quite often since you'll find many times competent soldiers and demomans because of how many mains they have.
#13
Krigs' 25 Jun @ 1:26pm 
Originally posted by AwesomeSause:
Originally posted by Krigs':
Ok, anything to say about the topic of skill ceiling?



Stu locking someone with airblast requires you to be at close range, where airblasting an incoming rocket becomes luck based and therefore unreliable. Not to mention that the soldier can just shoot after you airblasted him before you're able to air last again.
Depends on the range, I wouldn't count on hitting an enemy shooting a rocket/pipe 1000hu away, but at a reasonable range (the one where a soldier/demoman would shoot trying to get a direct hit) it's exactly like you were another soldier/demoman trying to hit them.
Playing pyro is about either fun or inability to aim. If you can aim grenades and rockets the reason becomes instantly the first one, so I don't see "just play soldier or demoman" as a decent argument
the skill ceiling is so low id rather play heavy to have some actual skill
Does heavy have access to the hardest projectiles in the game to master?
#14
ADvertise 25 Jun @ 1:35pm 
Originally posted by Cynimatic:
Originally posted by ADvertise:

I mean, what happens when you see a player like this, or have to face a Sketchek though? https://steamproxy-script.pipiskins.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=714666299


At the end of the day, there's always a player hitting the top of the scoreboards no matter what class they are picking. They make better predictions, have better aim, better movements, better flanks, offer better teamwork, better support, better baiting tactics, better map and situational awareness, etc.

So, I mean. Are we saying that skill-ceiling is only limited to class-mechanics and not creativity and tactics / raw aim and movements?

I mean, it's like yeah. I used to get 30-60 kill-streaks pretty consistently as pyro. I say used to, but the class had been nerfed pretty hard since then + arthritis. Still, even back in my prime someone like Sketchek would still clap my cheeks.

It ain't the other classes I fear, it's the person piloting the other classes that I worry about.
would probably be doing better as soldier or demo. also 2fort screenshot lmao. stomping f2ps on the worst map in the game proves close to nothing.

Mostly hit up CTF's if I'm going for the big killstreaks. There's no time-limit. Perfect for consistency.

Still, you're very much welcome to screenshot your own 60 killstreak on a CTF to prove it takes no skill (with kills and doms shown preferably as shown in my other screenshots) Saying it 'proves close to nothing' is another way of saying that you can do it easily too. I'd very much like to see that to validate your opinion.

Look, it ain't easy: opponents will stack hard-counters + medics, team-mates try to end the game, medics will bait you at 100% uber and run away to get you killed deliberately. You also got people pretending to be friendly, opponents not kicking cheaters to end your streak, team-mates throwing the match because they've 'been here too long', both teams calling for votekicks with aimbot accusations or killing friendlies (who fake being friendly anyways but tell your team to votekick you), etc. In fact, I'd say 95% of my streaks ended from my own team griefing me.

To be fair, it takes more than skill - you need a bit of luck that your team ain't going to be absolute degenerates. You could literally make a bingo-card that most of what I listed off will happen anytime you go over 30 KS.

Also, don't be so certain I'd be better at soldier/demo; while highly mobile, their mobility requires self-damage + fall damage, and the primary can cause unintentional self-damage and be reflected. You also got to master air-shots to be ultra-lethal - you'll always be trash otherwise. Lastly, a pocket medic with a Kritz is usually a requirement for big killstreaks, and typically on Dustbowl last after throwing the first two maps to increase defense timer. That's a lot of planning and organizing.

Tell you the truth, I ain't gotten past 15-30 KS consistently on either demo or soldier, I'm not good at projectile classes, I'm better at hitscan. That's the reason I play shotgun and not flaregun.
Last edited by ADvertise; 29 Jun @ 4:45pm
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Date Posted: 25 Jun @ 2:25am
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