Team Fortress 2
Pyro's strongest secondary
So this thread's purpose is not exactly to make a tier list of pyro's secondary, but rather to give my opinion on which one of the three strongest secondaries is the best one for pyro: the panic attack, the shotgun or the flare gun.
Almost good enough
First of all, I'll briefly talk about the detonator and the scorch shot. Those two are both really good secondaries for pyro, but they are in my opinion just barely not enough.
-the detonator offers the best mobility features for pyro. The damage is balanced by the flanking and repositioning possibilities given, as well as obviously buffing pyro's travel speed. It also provides the best way to spam as the detonation does not require a surface to deal splash damage. The problems are two: damage and self damage. Sacrificing long/mid range damage for pyro is a big risk since you'll be relying on getting close to the enemy team to deal decent damage, and to get in that range you'll be constantly dealing damage to yourself. The main weakness here is risk.
-the scorch shot, otherwise known as lung cancer offers great spamming and defensive potential, a but of mobility, some decent damage and even inhibits movement .Yet, the problem I see with this piece of ♥♥♥♥ is that while it gives a bit of everything it doesn't really specialize in anything, being decent at many things but not giving pyro a clear advantage in a certain aspect. It's strong, but to truly excel pyro has the three best options I'll compare in this thread.
The big 3
Disclaimer: the flamethrower's damage is taken from a graph made by another steam user, Love straight sex, the black graphs represent the stock flamethrower and the blue ones represent the degreaser.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/0m0ckrmdo7
Flare gun
so the flare gun is used on the puff and sting combo or at long range. Starting with a close range engagement, we can see the difference between the usage of degreaser or stock flamethrower.
with stock the switch speed is 0.5 seconds, so to minimize the time required to take down someone we'll need to see how much the enmy needs to be flamed before the flare usage.
-light classes: 125hp-90hp=35hp. To reach that damage the flamethrower needs around 0.32 seconds, so summing the two times we get a 0.82 seconds time requirement to kill a light class with stock + flare gun. To do so with stock you would need barely more than 0.9 seconds, and that is without considering the inconsistent nature of parcticles.
-medic: 150 hp-90hp=60hp. To reach that damage stock needs around 0.5 seconds, so we get an overll 1 second time. To reach 150 damage with stock alone you would need almost the same amount of time, but 0.042 seconds more. This again, without counting inconsistency.
-pyro/demoman: 175hp-90hp=85 hp. To reach that damage stock would need around 0.67 seconds, giving us an overall 1.17 seconds time requirement. Here stock alone still doesn't outclass this result, requiring 1.18 seconds.
-soldier: 200hp-90hp=110hp. Stock requires 0.82 seconds to achive that damage, giving us an overall 1.32 seconds requirement. Stock alone achives 200 damage in 1,31 seconds. We conclude that, using stock, every class with less than 200 hp dies more quickly with the puff and sting.
with the degreaser the thing changes. The switch speed is a whopping 0.35 seconds
-light classes: 125 hp-90 hp=35hp. 35hp. To reach that damage the degreaser needs around 0.32 seconds, so summing the two times we get a 0.67 seconds time requirement to kill a light class with stock + flare gun. To do so with degreaser you would need barely more than 0.9 seconds, and that is without considering the inconsistent nature of parcticles.
-medic: 150 hp-90hp=60hp. To reach that damage degreaser needs around 0.5 seconds, so we get an overall 0.85 second time. To reach 150 damage with degreaser alone you would need 1.042 seconds. This again, without counting inconsistency.
-pyro/demoman: 175hp-90hp=85 hp. To reach that damage degreaser would need around 0.67 seconds, giving us an overall 1.02 seconds time requirement. Here degreaser alone still doesn't outclass this result, requiring 1.18 seconds.
-soldier: 200hp-90hp=110hp. Stock requires 0.82 seconds to achive that damage, giving us an overall 1.17 seconds requirement. Degreaser alone achives 200 damage in 1,31 seconds. Here, we see the degreaser's superiority
-heavy: 300hp-90hp=210hp. Degreaser deals 210 damage in around 1.3 seconds, giving an overall 1.65 seconds time requirement. Degreaser alone deals 300 damage in around 1.9 seconds. Degreaser is the best flamethrower for a reason after all
So we can see that the flare gun gives a resonable edge in close range combat, and this without counting for the long range combat it's suited for, where no falloff and fast projectile speed makes it consistently outclass the shotgun and the panic attack.
Yet, while the flare gun does a decent job at covering pyro's range weakness, it doesn't enfatize enough his close range power and is way more inconsistent compared to the two rivals. Also the flare gun's power comes from burst damage, not DPS, where the shotguns instead shin.
For these reasons the flare gun gets the 3rd place.
Panic attack
To see the panic attack's performance, this section will be divided in the calculation of DPS at 2 different ranges.
To see the point blank range power of the pa, we'll need to calculate dps of a single clip.
single clip is calculated as AxB/((A-1)*C) where A is shots per clip, B damage per shot and C the attack interval
6*108/(5*0.625)=207.36 DPS for one clip
That's a lot even for point blank, but it becomes even better when using the degreaser+panic attack's combo:
when calculationmg the panic attack + degreaser's dps you would need to consider the amunt of flames disposable in the 0.625 sec fire rate of the pa. In this case we have a 0.2 sec switch speed to the degreaser + a 0.1 sec because of holster speed bonus + deploy speed bonus of degreaser and pa (0.25 sec + 0.15 sec = 0.4 sec, 0.5 sec-0.4 sec=0.1). That would make it so that for 0.3 seconds of the 0.625 seconds fire rate you can't flame, making 0.325 sec the maximum time limit.So we have in 0.325 sec a damage of 35 in between panic attack shots + 1 damage of afterburn each second.
Overall the dps become 242.36, making it a deadly combo for anyone unfortunate enought to step in pyro's hell.
Yet, this enourmous damage is only effective at point blank. say you want to get damage at 340 hu, the maximum distance covered by your flames.
first of all, now your degreaser's puffs only deal only half that damage, 22.5 + 1 damage per second because of afterburn.
To calculate the damage of the panic attack I'll use heavy's hitbox, because f*ck that class and because it's the biggest, showing just how weak the pa is even with such a big target. It's 75hu tall and 25hu wide.
After some testing the medium result was 49 damage, the dps in that case would become 6*49/(5*0.625)=94.08 DPS. If we sum it with the degreaser, the damage is 116.58 DPS.
That's just barely more than the degreaser's dps at that range, and the calculation doesn't count the wider spread caused by successive shots with the panic attack, making W+M1 almost superior at the maximum flamethrower's range.
We can safely assume in this case that the pa sucks past a really short range, the weapon's role is in fact to prioritze pyro's strength while not covering his weaknesses. For this reason, the panic attck deserves the 2nd place.
Shotgun
DPS (point blank): 6*90/(5*0.625)=172.8 DPS, usually paired with previous afterburn form the degreaser or stock.
We see that at point blank (pyro's optimal's range) the panic attack has way more potential damage. But let's look at 340hu.
With some testing, the medium damage is 66, the DPS become 6*66/(5*0.625)=127.488. Even more than panic attack+degreaser at a fairly close range, and the difference becomes even more significant if we count pellet spread and the panic attack's inaccuracy after consecutive shots.
the shotgun is an all rounder. Superior to the panic attack because it doesn't just amplify pyro's strength, but also cover his weakness, and superior to the flare gun because it works better up to mid range, where fights are more common and more realistic, while still being able to deal more consistent damage except for long range. This is why it gets the 1st place as pyro's strongest secondary.
Last edited by Krigs'; 15 Jul @ 9:12am
Originally posted by Smoke:
The numbers are fine, but that's all theory. In practice, things are different, and I'll talk about the panic attack mostly.

I've recorded myself playing pyro with the stock shotty and the panic attack, analyzed each encounter, and found that the panic attack allowed me to get / would have allowed me to get next to no extra kills, while the opposite is true for the stock shotgun.

I've also noticed that I lost precisely no kills because I was flaming and not using the panic attack, but I did notice I lost a kill while using the panic attack instead of flaming.

It comes down to the simple truth that the panic attack gives pyro another alternative in the range he's already strong in, while taking away the ability to deal good damage where his flamethrower doesn't help much. In other words, much of the upsides of the panic attack are already covered by the flamethrower.



The numbers look way better on paper for the panic attack, especially for the first few shots, partly because we're comparing weapons with continuous and burst damage profiles.

Point blank, the panic attack starts off with 108 damage, while the flamethrower starts with 6 (12 in testing). While the latter number isn't too relevant, what is is that it takes 0.81 seconds for the flamethrower to do 108 damage, by which point the panic attack can fire off another 108 damage burst, totaling 216 damage. The flamethrower cannot catch up to it within a single clip. Add to that the ability to combo the panic attack with fire, and it seems silly to even think the flamethrower alone could keep up, but there's more.

While burst has the advantage of allowing you to still deal normal damage while peaking from covers, continuous damage too has its upsides. The main one being reliability. Missing 20% of shots makes sense for continuous fire, but not necessarily for burst fire. If you can get a kill with two shots, it's either 100%, 50% or 0% shots missed, not 20%. This inconsistency, while it can be favorable, is never meaningfully so in a calculated encounter - there it's always either irrelevant or detrimental. That is the kill I lost by not using the flamethrower.

The other big point to consider is damage falloff. Weapons with spread suffer especially bad falloff since not only does each shot do less damage, but it's less likely to connect. The panic attack has really bad spread and thus really bad falloff. In terms of DPS, the shotgun catches up very quickly with distance and the gap between the flamethrower and the panic attack largely disappears. While Krigs came up with 49 damage on average per shot with heavy as the target at 340 hu, I came up with 36 damage on average on engineer at the same range. Let's round it up and say it's actually 40. Considering you're not gonna be able to aim center, you're just peppering the enemy and that distance and above.

The flamethrower combo also isn't practical. Fire is a projectile, not hitscan, so these two damage types you constantly switch between require you to aim differently. That is pretty infeasible, so the best alternative is to always aim like its hitscan. In that case, the damage of your flamethrower is far diminished. Additionally, without scripts or macros, you're not going to nail the timing down perfectly, losing DPS from either the fire or the panic attack.

Additionally, where DPS matters the most is against beefy classes. Heavy is too beefy and deals too much DPS to consider fighting, so we're left with soldier and demo. The theoretically there, but practically likely unattainable extra DPS you'd have from the panic attack does not outweigh having your flamethrower out and ready to deflect their projectiles.



If you told me I'm not allowed to use the shotgun, then panic attack would likely be my next pick most of the time. But if you told me I'm allowed to use all three, I'd never pick the panic attack. The panic attack ends up being a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ shotgun clone, while the flaregun, while not as powerful, at least feels different.
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Showing 1-15 of 77 comments
sam 15 Jul @ 6:41am 
reserve shooter my beloved
Krigs' 15 Jul @ 6:42am 
Originally posted by sam:
reserve shooter my beloved
outclassed
CV70 15 Jul @ 6:49am 
Originally posted by sam:
reserve shooter my beloved
reserve shooter on pyro after the nerf is a bad choice
jungus 15 Jul @ 7:02am 
Originally posted by Krigs':
Originally posted by sam:
reserve shooter my beloved
outclassed
Reserved Shooter is stock but you deploy it faster and you can minicrit explosive jumpers, what is it possibly outclassed by?
Krigs' 15 Jul @ 7:10am 
Originally posted by jungus:
Originally posted by Krigs':
outclassed
Reserved Shooter is stock but you deploy it faster and you can minicrit explosive jumpers, what is it possibly outclassed by?
The faster decoy speed is only of 0.1 second. Also the mini crit feature is really situational and if the explosive class shoots you can also hit him with a reflect. A clip of 4 shots instead is a crippling downside since the pyro relyes a lot on his shotgun to fight outside of flamethrower range, so your sustained damage is crucial
krkr128 15 Jul @ 7:34am 
jetpack is best for me
Smoke 15 Jul @ 8:08am 
Very nice to see an actually detailed analysis in a thread.
That being said, the bonus damage from flamethrower bursts with the panic attack is not realistically attainable without a script or some macro.
Smoke 15 Jul @ 8:09am 
Originally posted by jungus:
Originally posted by Krigs':
outclassed
Reserved Shooter is stock but you deploy it faster and you can minicrit explosive jumpers, what is it possibly outclassed by?
absolutely all use it saw before the nerf was airblast combos, and now that that does no bonus damage, it's entirely unused

the faster deploy is irrelevant and so is minicrits on jumping enemies everywhere but in comp
Last edited by Smoke; 15 Jul @ 8:10am
Originally posted by CV70:
Originally posted by sam:
reserve shooter my beloved
reserve shooter on pyro after the nerf is a bad choice

No it's not. The ONLY DOWNSIDE is that it has two fewer shots in the clip. How often do you actually need all six shots with stock? Hardly ever. No longer overpowered and obnoxious does not equal bad. The switch speed is handy and it's great for shooting down bombing soldiers. It's perfectly fine.
Originally posted by Smoke:
Originally posted by jungus:
Reserved Shooter is stock but you deploy it faster and you can minicrit explosive jumpers, what is it possibly outclassed by?

the faster deploy is irrelevant and so is minicrits on jumping enemies everywhere but in comp

No and no. Irrelevant how? Based on what?
Krigs' 15 Jul @ 8:27am 
Originally posted by Wiener Hole Paper Cut:
Originally posted by CV70:
reserve shooter on pyro after the nerf is a bad choice

No it's not. The ONLY DOWNSIDE is that it has two fewer shots in the clip. How often do you actually need all six shots with stock? Hardly ever. No longer overpowered and obnoxious does not equal bad. The switch speed is handy and it's great for shooting down bombing soldiers. It's perfectly fine.
Hardly ever depends on the fights, but usually in prolonged fights having 2 shots less means dying, and even in duels it can be an extreme downside (imagine for example a backscatter vs a scattergun scout in MGE)

Originally posted by Wiener Hole Paper Cut:
Originally posted by Smoke:

the faster deploy is irrelevant and so is minicrits on jumping enemies everywhere but in comp

No and no. Irrelevant how? Based on what?
Not necessarily irrelevant, just situational and many times overkill.


Originally posted by Smoke:
Very nice to see an actually detailed analysis in a thread.
That being said, the bonus damage from flamethrower bursts with the panic attack is not realistically attainable without a script or some macro.
There are many clips of people doing so, it isn't reliable but it's still a decent enough tactic. Thought I agree that the number I showed are mostly something more idealized rather than practical, in fact panic attack is outclassed by stock
Mina 15 Jul @ 8:37am 
sniper rifle or quick fix
Krigs' 15 Jul @ 8:40am 
Originally posted by Mina:
sniper rifle or quick fix
Nah the gas passer is a direct upgrade to those two
DoubleXP 15 Jul @ 8:41am 
I do prefer the detonator but out of the big three I would have to choose the flare gun mostly because I like the feeling of hitting a combo the panic attack is my second choice do to the amount of situations that it would outperform the flare gun (it also gives another damage form so you can deal with vaccinator medics easier)
DoubleXP 15 Jul @ 8:43am 
Originally posted by Krigs':
Originally posted by Mina:
sniper rifle or quick fix
Nah the gas passer is a direct upgrade to those two
The righteous bison is way better than the gas passer
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