Age of Wonders 4

Age of Wonders 4

TB - Society Traits
ThaBombs  [developer] 17 May @ 1:09pm
Balance Ideas / feedback
If you've got any suggestions on the balance or other feedback on the existing traits please leave them here. Any feedback is always appreciated.
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Showing 1-15 of 15 comments
Just throwing ideas, not sure if they are even possible. Feel free to take it or leave it.

For Arcane Warmasters maybe removing exp and defensive bonuses. But to compensate for that each time you activate an enchantment giving your Battle Mage and Supports double the benefit could be cool. If that sounds weak maybe also getting +2 hp per enchantment could work.

Merchant Kingdom is fine I think. However if you feel like reworking it maybe giving a ramping up bonus could work. First agreement +2 on all, second +4 etc. That way you would need to be a proper merchant kingdom to get the benefits.

For Mountain Raisers maybe changing imperium to bonus production could work. If possible you can also give bonuses in combat when figthing on a mountain hex. More defense maybe. If done that other things could get weaker to balance it though.

For Nomadic a sort of cap mechanic on outpost would work. Similar to hero cap that increases over time, of course it would start at a higher number and increase faster than the hero cap, I just used hero cap as an in game example. And maybe removing or decreasing the imperium income.

I just love Ruinmongers :DarkOphelia:

Can't say anything about Soul Forgers gotta try it first. It sounds like a fun concept though.

Making Startouched give 0 affinities but work with starting tome could be interesting. That way it would give you the standard 1affinity in a more build dependent way.

Tidecallers feel like more war oriented version of experienced seafarers, sounds cool. Especially for a naga type faction.

For Vivisecionists can't comprehend for good or bad it would be gotta try it first. Not sure if possible but making different units give different things alongside knowledge when killed could be cool. Undead could give soul if available, construct gold, plant/animal food etc.
Going to throw some ideas out there as well :).

Warmasters: really like the idea of pushing Battlemages being able to be more prominent and able to be used as melee mages, I think a decent way to balance this would be to add a debuff to Shield, Fighter, Shock and Polearm units. There a society that neglects there melee fighters to focus on their mages and supports.

Merchant Kingdom: Maybe something along the lines of a nerf to mana or Magic Origin Unit upkeep? in my mind a Merchant Kingdom is going to be behind the times when it comes on magic/mana development as they are going to be focused on Gold and Trade

Mountain Raisers: i'd probably drop the Imperium income to +2 per province, and drop the Hurry price reduction to 25% instead of 50%.
ThaBombs  [developer] 19 May @ 8:38am 
Thank you both for the feedback, it is definitly helpful.

Originally posted by Mr.Horakhty:
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Not sure if possible but making different units give different things alongside knowledge when killed could be cool. Undead could give soul if available, construct gold, plant/animal food etc.

This is very possible, though I don't think I like this for the Vivisectionists per se. I think I'll make a new trait out of it.
Furin 29 May @ 2:14pm 
When you stack the luxury market (tome of golden realm) with mountain raisers the cost for rushing units becomes negative. you won't get money from rushing units but instead you cannot rush units any more. So a hurry price reduction is very much required.

I am still dreaming of a cheaper version of shatter mountain or a tome where all the terraforming spells are combined, but I am not sure this is the place to ask for it.
ThaBombs  [developer] 23 Jun @ 12:54am 
Originally posted by Furin:
When you stack the luxury market (tome of golden realm) with mountain raisers the cost for rushing units becomes negative. you won't get money from rushing units but instead you cannot rush units any more. So a hurry price reduction is very much required.

I have unsuccesfull tried to replicate this, is there perhaps another mod that is influencing this?



Originally posted by Furin:
I am still dreaming of a cheaper version of shatter mountain or a tome where all the terraforming spells are combined, but I am not sure this is the place to ask for it.

I do have a trait planned called Mountain Stomper, but that is one of the traits being delayed.
I also have some more ideas regarding terraforming traits, but they also are on a back burner.
Furin 23 Jun @ 10:43am 
Could very well be another mod, sorry for the inconvenience!

So I tired arcane warmasters, my battle mage units have the melee mage trait in their description but in combat they can't shoot when an enemy is close as if they didn't have it at all. Does it work for you?
Last edited by Furin; 23 Jun @ 1:18pm
ThaBombs  [developer] 24 Jun @ 6:49am 
Originally posted by Furin:
Could very well be another mod, sorry for the inconvenience!

So I tired arcane warmasters, my battle mage units have the melee mage trait in their description but in combat they can't shoot when an enemy is close as if they didn't have it at all. Does it work for you?

I have identified and fixed the issue. I'll have an update for it up today. Thank you for reporting it. :)
Furin 25 Jun @ 5:29am 
Thank's for that! I think the last report was just an event that prevented recruiting in that city and I misunderstood.
Furin 29 Jun @ 1:51am 
I think there is a mixup with at the very least the trait description of colossal legion and dragon tamers. It makes no sense for colossal legion to have the blessed dragon at the start (which they get) but they don't get the summon spell as advertised. I haven't tried dragon tamers yet, so I don't know if they get the spell, but the last part of their description seems to be a duplicate of colossal legion or vice verso.

Also, if dragon tamers get -10 alignment, why kit them out with a blessed dragon? Doesn't a red, black or blue variant make more sense? Even a young variant would be pretty strong for the very early game. I get it the dragons aren't in it willingly but would they really housebreak a blessed type?
Last edited by Furin; 29 Jun @ 1:59am
ThaBombs  [developer] 29 Jun @ 3:59am 
Originally posted by Furin:
I think there is a mixup with at the very least the trait description of colossal legion and dragon tamers. It makes no sense for colossal legion to have the blessed dragon at the start (which they get) but they don't get the summon spell as advertised. I haven't tried dragon tamers yet, so I don't know if they get the spell, but the last part of their description seems to be a duplicate of colossal legion or vice verso.

Also, if dragon tamers get -10 alignment, why kit them out with a blessed dragon? Doesn't a red, black or blue variant make more sense? Even a young variant would be pretty strong for the very early game. I get it the dragons aren't in it willingly but would they really housebreak a blessed type?

That first one is a bug I thought I had already solved. I don't know how that one slipped through the cracks again, I'll add it to the bug list.

The dragon Tamers will receive a small redesign next update. I've received extensive feedback on it over on the discord.
Why I choose the blessed dragon was for gameplay and mechanical reasons. It's relatively unique, also uses the inner grace natively and is a T2 dragon you'll rarely otherwise see in game.

There'll be more traits in the future geared towards dragons, one of which will be 100% evil aligned.
Collosi Legion seems a bit overtuned, +25 health is pretty strong, +50% damage is insanely good, upkeep costs only hold you back so much, since there is a maximum of 18 units in a single battle, youd become unbeatable in the late game (more than usual).
The units also seems to be reduced to single models in size, which means they also dont get reduced effectiveness from casualties like most units do.
A lot of your society traits are a bit stronger then other ones, but this one might be the strongest one.
Does the +50% upkeep only affect the base upkeep, or does it also multiply the enchantment upkeep?
If it only affects base upkeep, it really isnt sufficient to balance out the power bonuses.
Last edited by Phoenixblood; 4 Jul @ 11:25pm
Done some research and testing, and to bring something constructive. I compared to Supergrowth, which decreases numbers and increases size, is +10hp and +1 retaliation.
Despite increasing size it doesnt increase damage, since for most units the extra power per indivudual is balanced out by the reduction in numbers. So a health increase makes sense, but damage doesnt. I would considers +20 health, large target, siege breaker, for +10-20% upkeep. That combined with reducing unit size to 1 (which itself is a pretty nice buff) keeps this conceptually and still is quite strong, without being too powerful.
Last edited by Phoenixblood; 5 Jul @ 3:36am
ThaBombs  [developer] 6 Jul @ 12:11am 
Originally posted by Phoenixblood:
Done some research and testing, and to bring something constructive. I compared to Supergrowth, which decreases numbers and increases size, is +10hp and +1 retaliation.
Despite increasing size it doesnt increase damage, since for most units the extra power per indivudual is balanced out by the reduction in numbers. So a health increase makes sense, but damage doesnt. I would considers +20 health, large target, siege breaker, for +10-20% upkeep. That combined with reducing unit size to 1 (which itself is a pretty nice buff) keeps this conceptually and still is quite strong, without being too powerful.

First of all, thank you for your effort and I must admit, balance isn't my forte.
I'd like to mention though there are severe downsides to the trait you haven't mentioned. You'll be paying not only 50% more upkeep, but also 50% more in both production costs and draft, which means, especially early on, it'll take a lot to actually build a full stack. Having less units also sets you up for being crowd controlled and swarmed. Additionally Large Target being non-optional on any of your creatures means you'll have severe disadvantages facing anyone wielding spears.

Lastly the trait doesn't provide anything outside of combat, aside from eco nerds, it is purely tactical.
Considering that would you still request for the damage buff to be removed?
Thanks for taking the time to read my posts.
My experience with the game is that up front costs arent as much of an issue as upkeep, especially since with the health and damage bonuses Collosi tier 1 units will outperform normal T2-3 units, you can use those to manage the early game, and then dominate the late game with T3 units that can outperform T4 units, possibly even T5 units.
T3 units cost 140 iirc, and T1 costs 60, T2 costs 100, so even with +50% Collossi T1s are cheaper than other culture T2s, and easily outperform them.
I would agree that it might be more balanced IF there wasnt a cap on 18 units in a single battle.
Another factor is that it will make heroes and summons crazy strong, since I noticed the buffs applying to non-racial units which arent affected at all by the production and draft increases.
+50% is just too large a benefit to not unbalance things one way or the other.
I think it would be best to tone down the cost increases if you think they are too punishing if you remove the damage. Perhaps inline with my previous suggestion of +10-20% for the upkeep.
Last edited by Phoenixblood; 7 Jul @ 12:16am
Been playing with Descendants of Darwin, and while I like the theme of veterans being more valuable, I do think the benefits are a bit high. +25 health and +25% damage at champion rank is a very powerful bonus, and evolve units getting the bonus 5 times (and then being able to rank up an additional 5 times, allows them to get +50 health and +50% damage, which, considering most evolved units are at least T3 (some evolve to T5!) It is quite overpowered.
I think that you can keep in the theme of the trait and still have quite strong bonuses, by lowering the bonuses to +2/+2% instead, an extra 10hp and 10% damage is still quite strong compared to other society traits without being too crazy, and fully evolved units with +20/20% would be absolute powerhouses still.
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